Historical

Just noticed your comment about not wanting to live in the past...I totally agree.  Nice to visit, but not to stay!  (a bit like some holiday destinations).

Two things I would miss most: showers, and modern medicine.  How on earth did women cope in former times without paracetamol?

Annie

Someone has been busy working on this site. This thread suddenly appeared on my screen. I have never seen it before. Enjoyed reading all the comments. I was so happy to read I'm not the only one who has problems with DG. My best friend loves her books and wants Jaime for her own. I have to admit as a female and one who enjoys history I can't think of anything that would tempt me to stay in the past. It would be a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. Sorry Michelle.

The late Phyllis Whitney used to call her vacations  book research trips. It is always better when you can combine. Plus then I have a justification for visitng al lthe historical sites etc that I want to.

I am looking forward to visiting Istanbul. Carol Townend went earlier this year. I know she is writing a duo based on her experience.

Right I need to get back to the wip.

Hopefully Michelle W will update on the state of play of historicals etc when she gets back from the RWA Nationals...I am currnelty living vicariously with Donna Alward's updates on the Pink Heart Society.

Michelle S

Caro --

I suspect that some of the same wards still exist today. The RVI is very rabbit warren. I had my catracts done there a few years ago.

ANd I mean that John Martin. Many of his painting are at the Laing. It was an interesting book.

And my husband has just booked our October holiday -- Istanbul which is fantastic as I am setting the final book of a proposed trilogy there...I am rather over excited about this.

Michelle S

The dvd of this arrived yesterday. And I thoroughly reccomend it for anyone interested in the period. Fantastically filmed. I loved Dash (who was played by a Cavilier King Charles -- we won't talk about that as CKC were first bred in the early 20th century!) It is a great way to pas an evening, particularly when one is writing a 1837 set story.

Michelle S

A Vision of Light by Judith Merkle Riley is one of my favourites too. I like her writing style - a really witty sense of humour.

Victoria Holt / Philippa Carr is another one whose writing I adored in my teens. So atmospheric. Never realised she wrote as Jean Plaidy until just a few years ago. Still haven't read Plaidy yet. One day!

Annie --

I went and looked it up. It sounds good and I am not sure if I read or not as a girl. It certainly sounds like one I would have enjoyed. And I do remeber reading several set in Tudor England. One had the tune of Greensleeves playing when they slipped back.

ANyway, because I went and looked up. I discovered that Anya Seton had written a time slip --Green Darkness which I did read when I was in my Anya Seton phase. Katherine is quite good as well.

And once I read a time slip centre around Sutton Hoo. But in that one, the Tudor characters did glimpse the future. So Rockefeller appeared briefly.

I used to think that it would be wonderful to go back in time.

Michelle S

I am pleased to see that I am not the only person who struggled with DG.

Victoria Holt wrote as Philippa Carr as well as Jean Plaidy. She was incredibly prolific. And her three personas really span the historical spectrum. Jean Plaidy is v accurate historical fiction with historical figures being the main characters, Philippa Carr sits in the middle where there is some reference to real life events and Victoria Holt, while still being accurate uses history as a backdrop.  Victoria HOlt died several years ago.

Philippa Gregory who is more on the Jean Plaidy end of things is still very much alive...

I read a lot of children/YA historical fiction but certainly Victoria Holt/Jean Plaidy ranked amongst my earliest forays into adult historical fiction. I just have always enjoy historical fiction.

Michelle S

I enjoyed the early Gabaldon books years ago, although they're very black & white. But during the third instalment, I began to lose interest. I bought the fourth but didn't get beyond the beginning. Think her style started to irritate me. I recently - after almost 10 years - tried the first one again and didn't like it. Ooops...

I love Barbara Erskine. She's excellent with atmospheres. One of my favourites is Kingdom of Shadows, set during the Scottish Wars of Independence. But I haven't read it in over 15 years, I think. I have a whole shelf of her novels, but have recently stopped buying new ones. It seems to become a bit repetitive.

I wouldn't want to write one, as I'm not keen on this  'OMG how backward!' kind of thinking that often plagues the time-slipping heroine. Not sure if it makes it easier from our modern pov to create a credible heroine, though. You could keep your 'modern writer' mindset while travelling into the past. Not for me, methinks.

Annie --

I used to love them. Barbara Eskine wrote a marvelous couple. They were time slips back to JOhn reign. And I can remember a great one about a woman who on her wedding day changes places with her g grandmother or rather the woman she thinks is her g grandmother. It was set in the California gold rush.

Then there was one by Jude Devereux, v historical wallpaper. And the one thing I can remember is that heroine used to sit in a closet with the hoover going as she read books, so that her neat freak mother couldn't tell...

I have never been able to get into Diana G. I did try. Lots of people love her. Living in the borders, I kept thinking that it was not as clear cut...annd after that I was never a fan.

Michelle S

The book is set in 1855, 6 years before Albert's death.  Since it's my own fictional country, I can choose the rules and regulations, but I'd like them to be based on true royalty.  It will likely be a combination of minor German royalty and Danish royalty.  But still, I'm just looking for ideas. 

Hi Steph!  It's great to see you in here.   

I'll toss out a question for anyone.  I'm looking for good books that document the everyday life of royalty.  I might use a biography of Queen Victoria, but I suspect it would contain less social history and more political history.  A few folks have offered suggestions off-list, but if anyone has come across good books or resources about how a prince or princess would have to behave in public, I'd love to get my hands on the references.  Thanks!

Fascinating about the elephants!  Jane, I'll bet that was fun, composing a poem about them.  :)

I'm a visual learner, I'll admit.  I adore historical research books that are full of pictures.  When I was researching the steam ships, I just couldn't get over the luxury for first class passengers.  The grand saloons had chandeliers, elaborate curtains, screened promenade decks, chests of drawers in the rooms--so elaborate!

Carol --

I went and checked. Yes, it is true about the elephants in Leamington Spa.

http://www.otba.org.uk/history.htm#ELEPHANTS

I hadn't realised that Leamington was also where Lawn Tennis was born. Many years ago, my dh worked in Leamington and has fond memories of the town.

Michelle S

Michelle, you will enjoy the Herrin book, I am about to reread it.   Also Tom Holland's book.

All best

Carol

Well if it is anything like his history of Venice, it will be detailed and thorough and a certain cure for insomnia.

My dh recently gave me Judith Herrin's Byzantium. It is on my list to read if I get the time as I think Byzantium is thoroughly fascinating. The other book about that period I want to read is the Four of Horses of St Mark's. then there is Tom Holland's Millennium and the new Robin Lane Fox that I have got to finish -- Travelling Heroes about HOmer and his inspirations.

BUt I am going to finsh this Age of Wonder as Herschel is very intersting. Davy is good too and Faraday.

Michelle S

Has anyone read any good reference books lately?

One of the reasons I adore writing Historicals is the chance it brings to do research. I just finished Max Adams The Firebringers about the Martin brothers, but really detailing the world they lived in. John Martin was a very popular artist during the Regency/early Victorian period. His sort of biblical/epic paintings then fell out of fashion -- John Ruskin hated him. But he taught Princess Charlotte and was friends with Prince Leopold. Adams fills the book with little anecdotes.

I have also just started RIchard Holmes TheAge of Wonder which looks at various scientists in the century before Darwin. I never realised that the first person to be called a scientist was a woman and that women produced most of the textbooks on science.

Anyone else come across fascinating facts?

Michelle S

Thanks so much for the book recommendation. Very useful!

Have just popped out of the masquerade ball over at eharl for a breath of air.  Things are getting decidedly heated over there!  Need to cool down.

To me, if you CAN find the little details, it makes the story that much richer.  It takes time and you do the best you can, but in the end, I think it turns out better.

I'm writing a chapter right now that takes place on board an 1855 steamship.  Now, most of the book has nothing to do with ships, but it really does make it easier to describe the setting and details when you've done a little homework. I think the chapter will be easier to write, because of it.  At least, that's the hope!

Welcome to the historicals...and look! (or should that be lo?)  I have finally managed to load a piccy of self.

Following the thread about accuracy in historicals...I don't think it would even possible to be completely accurate one hundred percent of the time if writing contemporary.  We all only know our own little segment of the time we live in.  For example, I know all about being a housewife and mother in suburbia in the 21st century, but I would have to do a lot of research about, say, life as a career woman, or what life is like in an inner city sink estate.  So how can we be expected to know every single thing about a past era, when we do not know all about our own?

I know what you mean about mistakes in work procedures, too.  Recently I read a book whose heroine worked in a call centre, and having worked in a few myself, the inaccuracies screamed at me off the page!  Unless you actually have first hand experience, these kind of little details are hard to get right.

All we can do is our best not to shatter the fantasy world for our readers,

Annie

Jane---oooh, I adore old books.  Especially ones where the former owner scribbed her name and/or little notes.  I bought an early school book that was published in 1875 at a used bookstore and used it when I was teaching about one-room school houses in the U.S. during the 19th century.  My students were astounded at the reader, and many of them had difficulty with the stories (comprehension of the language).

I think you tend to find the more finicky readers with the Regency period, since it's so popular.  Honestly though, for me, it's all about the story.  Sweep me away with a dashing hero and a sympathetic heroine, and I don't care whether or not saucers were used with tea cups. 

Yep, Michelle, absolutely.

I keep getting the urge to slip a 'Twas in and occasionally a 'Pon rep (strictly These Old Shades territory, that one!) but luckily my keen sense of the absurd stops me every time.

We don't tend to get that kind of unlikely Regency cant in Austen, so why put it in our novels?

My DH (evil H, more like) nipped out and bought me a copy of Twilight today, since we watched the film version last night and I thought it was just marvellous. So that was the end of all sensible work today ...  

That idea of yours, Michelle (S), of writing in such a way that the reader believes and isn't 'pulled out' of that world is about right. Frankly, when reading historicals, I wouldn't know much of the time if the writer had got a minor detail wrong, and wouldn't much care since I'm not a historian. The story is what chiefly interests me, and in Regencies, the comedy of manners - which is often the key social element binding the story together.

I love the lavish sweep and depth of a historical, I suppose, without being too caught up in what style of breeches were popular at the time. Though I know that if I mention a historical detail like that in my own story, I really need to get it right!

But yes, you can get silly errors in contemporary stories too. I read a recent contemporary romance which had someone doing something completely inappropriate for their job which wasn't then queried or explained by anyone. I was annoyed that the writer had jolted me out of the story like that, and amazed that nobody had spotted what was really quite an obvious mistake.

So we can all get it wrong on occasion. ;)

Hi Keira, nice to have you here! And Michelle W., I used to run a secondhand and antiquarian bookshop in Cornwall. When it died, I kept some of the older stock which wasn't in great condition, and still have a few early Miltons kicking around, plus a mid-17th century dictionary of hard and unusual words. Lovely to look at, and just fascinating if you're interested in old books.

Because I do jump periods -- Romans, Vikings, regency and early Victorian. I do try to do some reading around before I begin a novel to make sure I am in the right mode.

The how great of  an understanding is a good question. Because even amongst historians, there are different degrees and approaches. For example an econmic historian, a social hisotrian and a political historian will have different approaches. Then there are the experimental historians and the re-enactors.

One of the best things that I ever read is that writing historical is an anchronism. YOu can not get everything right.  All you can hope is to create a world that is vivid and does not pull the reader out. And really if the story is excellent, you have more chance of the reader forgiving.

There are things you know you don't know (they're easy), the things you think you know (harder), things you know you know and the unknown unknowns.

And the trick is I think to underpin.

Also of course no fictional world is an exact duplicate of the real world. Think about contemporary fiction -- the most successful tend to be rooted in reality rather than slavishly recreating.

But it is an interesting topic and there is no right answer. I suspect the amount of research required is whatever you feel comfortable with.

Michelle S

PS waving to Keira